Religion

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What is your Religion?

Born-Again Christian (or just non-denominational)
9
7%
Buddist
4
3%
Catholic
11
8%
Atheist
48
36%
Atheist
48
36%
Pagan
4
3%
Jewish
3
2%
Lutheran/Protestant/Baptist (other denoms of Christianity)
5
4%
 
Total votes: 132
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redBULLman
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Religion

Post by redBULLman » Mon Nov 11, 2002 8:12 pm

Im just wondering what all your faiths are out there, personally, im born again christian. Do you all think that a game like CS or NS might be desensitizing us to killing and such? And those of you who are christian, id like to hear your beleifs on if games like CS or just games in general are, how shall we say, sinning, for lack of a better word.

Cause if we are playing a game where we are killing, then we are thinking aobut killing, adn doesnt it say in the bible that when you think of somethign you've already done it?? or does that jsut apply to affairs?

Ill enjoy your responses...
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Post by bx|Mr. Cod » Mon Nov 11, 2002 10:07 pm

1) I think if your going to make a poll asking what religions people are you ought to actually include a few religions. Currently you have listed 3 categories for christians. Born Again, Catholic, and then other Denoms. How catholic didn't get into other denoms i don't know. How about, Hindu, Muslim, Taoist? Surely they would be better choices than "Pagan" or 3 Xtian options?

2) Death has absoloute finality. (If you are religious, then it has finality on this world at least.) Games do not have finality. Games are pure phantasy, and thats their attraction. You do not die in Games. You restart. I do accept that there is some arguement against the levels of gore. As games increase in their likeness to reality age limits, I feel, are appropriate.

REDbull said
"Cause if we are playing a game where we are killing, then we are thinking aobut killing, adn doesnt it say in the bible that when you think of somethign you've already done it?? or does that jsut apply to affairs?"

If you read theOld Testiment you will find little but the wrath of God, his mercyless killing, and brutality in almost every chapter.

eg,
Noah's Ark.
This is children's tale, but if taken literally it's an act of genocide that would make Hitler blush. Everyone and every animal gets killed by God because 'we' did't listen to the bastard! Consider how the God of infinite perfection could have alowed this to happen and you have ourself a neat little paradox.
Or consider the 7 plagues of Egypt, where God finally kills the innocent first born of every Egyptian (this story is DEFINITLY meant to be taken literally). This is an act of unparalleled cruelty, not only because he kills people, but God singles out and massacres children.

As you can probably muster i'm not a religious person, but I do respect religious people (though not 'fanatics'* of any faith), but I don't think you will find the answer to your question in the Bible unless you intend to ignore a great deal of it. Ultimatly thats what faith is about of course, as reasoning was never a path to God :)


* There are some notable exceptions to my bigotry, eg Ghandi.
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Post by redBULLman » Tue Nov 12, 2002 12:55 am

Thanks for the other religions, and the idea on the poll, i knew i was missing muslim, and i didnt think hinduism and taoism were that big anymore. ill change the poll if i can.

About the bible and the old testament, When you read it you have to keep your mind open, and realize that alot of it is symbolic more than literal, although i do agree that somethings are alittle extreeme, but you have to think. If you created something, and that thing showed total and utter disrespect for you and your other creations, what would you do. Now we can look at this as humans, and our views will be bent by emotion and love for life, and things of this world. And you have to think, why should God have to reason, if you follow the bible and beleive it you think and know that he knows all, and he knew all before it happened. maybe he did things like the great flood of noah's time, in order to teach us a lesson, let us know that he is the beggining and the end, the make all end all.
bx|Mr. Cod wrote:1) I think if your going to make a poll asking what religions people are you ought to actually include a few religions. Currently you have listed 3 categories for christians. Born Again, Catholic, and then other Denoms. How catholic didn't get into other denoms i don't know. How about, Hindu, Muslim, Taoist? Surely they would be better choices than "Pagan" or 3 Xtian options?

2) Death has absoloute finality. (If you are religious, then it has finality on this world at least.) Games do not have finality. Games are pure phantasy, and thats their attraction. You do not die in Games. You restart. I do accept that there is some arguement against the levels of gore. As games increase in their likeness to reality age limits, I feel, are appropriate.

REDbull said
"Cause if we are playing a game where we are killing, then we are thinking aobut killing, adn doesnt it say in the bible that when you think of somethign you've already done it?? or does that jsut apply to affairs?"

If you read theOld Testiment you will find little but the wrath of God, his mercyless killing, and brutality in almost every chapter.

eg,
Noah's Ark.
This is children's tale, but if taken literally it's an act of genocide that would make Hitler blush. Everyone and every animal gets killed by God because 'we' did't listen to the bastard! Consider how the God of infinite perfection could have alowed this to happen and you have ourself a neat little paradox.
Or consider the 7 plagues of Egypt, where God finally kills the innocent first born of every Egyptian (this story is DEFINITLY meant to be taken literally). This is an act of unparalleled cruelty, not only because he kills people, but God singles out and massacres children.

As you can probably muster i'm not a religious person, but I do respect religious people (though not 'fanatics'* of any faith), but I don't think you will find the answer to your question in the Bible unless you intend to ignore a great deal of it. Ultimatly thats what faith is about of course, as reasoning was never a path to God :)


* There are some notable exceptions to my bigotry, eg Ghandi.
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poll

Post by redBULLman » Tue Nov 12, 2002 12:57 am

blech i cant change the poll i dot think, if youd rather, reply with your religion/beleifs
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Post by Diggity » Tue Nov 12, 2002 1:42 am

Noah's Ark.
if taken literally it's an act of genocide that would make Hitler blush. Or consider the 7 plagues of Egypt, where God finally kills the innocent first born of every Egyptian (this story is DEFINITLY meant to be taken literally). This is an act of unparalleled cruelty, not only because he kills people, but God singles out and massacres children.

I wouldn't define this as
merciless killing
Usually it’s understood that in a given instance of the wrath of God occurring there is ample warning. It is only at the very last instance of refusal that Gods wrath tends to come.

Take Sodom and Gomorra. The citizens raped the angels of God there to warn the people. This is considered a last line warning. The same can be inferred by Noah's ark as the ark itself took a great amount of time to build. My assumption is Noah and his sons stood as living harbingers.

Usually such wrath is most likely mercy in face of the alternatives. There are worse fates in life than death.

Egypt is a different case however as God specifically hardened Pharaohs heart with the direct intent of making his name known among the nations. As far as first born sons dying, to die an innocent for the purpose of God could be viewed as a great honor as oppose to other alternatives. The method of death is also not described as expressively painful or long. In fact one can infer that it was instantaneous.

On other notes I wouldn't call Noah's ark a
children's tale
It is documented in multiple religions across the world. There is also high degree of physical evidence on the earth supporting the occurrence of an apocalyptic flood. Is Noah the biblical Noah? That is up for interpretation.

The bible does contain detailed descriptions of the length and build of the ark. However its also possible that Noah was some early scientist who saw a flood coming.

As far as
Consider how the God of infinite perfection could have allowed this to happen and you have ourselves a neat little paradox.
Add free will and defiance into the equations and its not too implausible.

There are a lot of great parents that have really messed up kids.
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Post by bx|Mr. Cod » Tue Nov 12, 2002 1:50 am

redBULLman wrote:Thanks for the other religions, and the idea on the poll, i knew i was missing muslim, and i didnt think hinduism and taoism were that big anymore. ill change the poll if i can.

i) About the bible and the old testament, When you read it you have to keep your mind open, and realize that alot of it is symbolic more than literal, although i do agree that somethings are alittle extreeme, but you have to think.
ii)If you created something, and that thing showed total and utter disrespect for you and your other creations, what would you do. Now we can look at this as humans, and our views will be bent by emotion and love for life, and things of this world.
iii) And you have to think, why should God have to reason, if you follow the bible and beleive it you think and know that he knows all, and he knew all before it happened. maybe he did things like the great flood of noah's time, in order to teach us a lesson, let us know that he is the beggining and the end, the make all end all.

[

.
[/quote]

Well you know, we are going at the same points from different perspectives, but ultimatly I think you are adhereing to what I suggested anyway.

i)When you say, keep an open mind and realise that somethings are literal and some things are symbolic, I am challenging you to look at it another way:

I think if you pick and choose what you regard as symbolism in the Old Testement then you are just molding your perspective to a pre-conceived notion of a "mercyful" God. This is what I meant by ignore.

ii) And I don't think you got the paradox that I put to you. I was asking, how can a God of infinite perfection and the personification of good, create beings that do not adhere to good? Free will is an inadequate explanation, because free will, by definition, accepts that God created beings capable of doing evil. How could an infinitly perfect God make this mistake?

iii) Furthermore, are you suggesting that mass genocide is an acceptable part of a plan for man? Or for a 'mercyful' God to follow? I cannot think of a single act of genocide as an act of cleansing( often called ethinic cleansing no?) that has been tolerated moraly by man, yet you accept it without question when you hear God does it at whim? Let me put it this way:
If God can destroy his own creation simply to make a point, were there not far easier and/or acceptable ways to carry out this plan?
And I have to ask this question, because you totally ignored it in your rebutle and it is this.
"Why were the animals slaughtered too?" Symbolic or not? If its literal, I cant fathom a worthwhile explanation, and if its symbolic, then what is the symbolism of needlessly killing an entire population of animals for the sins of man? What do we learn from that?"

Wow, did we get off topic....
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Post by Babaganoosh » Tue Nov 12, 2002 11:42 am

redBULLman wrote:Thanks for the other religions, and the idea on the poll, i knew i was missing muslim, and i didnt think hinduism and taoism were that big anymore.
I don't know about taoism, but isn't Islam supposed to be the most prominent religion world-wide?
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Post by Haplo » Tue Nov 12, 2002 1:24 pm

The poll list could be like 2 pages long really. As far as North American 'main stream religions' go, I think you got pretty close, and cod brought up some important other ones. Nonetheless, I'm not going to try and fit into one of the categories, rather I'll just give my reply.

I'm agnostic. Which for those who do not know, essentially means 'no true belief in a god or gods, but acknowledges the possibility.' In other words, if one morning I find my self in front of 'the gates' I can say, 'oh yeah, I was agnostic, I believed .. but was a confused kid' :twisted: .

Basically I take it like I acknowledge some religion out there might be right, evidence towards several religions exist, and it would be kind of cool. Yet that is only when I am feeling truly optimistic. For the most part I think religions contribute to most of the problems in this world.

And as far as gaming goes, I agree with cod. Parents need to regulate what their kids see and learn. Not that I believe kids should be completely sheltered, but as they mature they can be exposed to new things. At the very least parents should take the time to explain whats going on, and that its not real. Some kids just can't handle the stuff, and in most cases its just mild childish excess and excitement. For the kids/teens/people who see something fake and they go out and do it .. well .. this world is overpopulated and I believe in facilitiation and I think capital punishment. CS can be pretty gory, but whenever I play I'm not like, 'ooh .. blood .. and I killed that guy.' If I even take the time to think about it, I see the players as obstacles to get past, and shooting them to a certain extent removes them from you and your teams path. As far as NS goes, I think all any religious doctrine has ever said was to not kill 'the creatures of gods earth.' So that means I can kick some outer-planetary alien carapace as much as I want! (if they have the upgrade of course :D :roll: ) And when alien, umm, killing marines, ... Hey i'm an alien and don't have any theology to stick by!
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Post by Diggity » Tue Nov 12, 2002 4:09 pm

Free will is an inadequate explanation, because free will, by definition, accepts that God created beings capable of doing evil. How could an infinitly perfect God make this mistake?
With the capacity of freedom comes the capacity to love. With the capacity to love comes the opposite, the capacity to not love or be apathetic. With this capacity comes the capacity of doing evil.

You can't be an automaton and love. Is love really love without any alternative options?
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wow

Post by redBULLman » Tue Nov 12, 2002 5:00 pm

fodder, you lost me...all i know is that when we were given free will at the garden(this is speaking from christian POV in case u didnt know). it gave us the capacity to do anything we wanted, worship anything we wanted, do anything we wanted. But God wanted us to have this free will so that we could see what life has, and if we choose to turn from him, then in the end, we'll realize our wrongs, and its our fault. He didnt create us just to destroy us, i meant we're all here now arent we?and back with noah's time, there couldnt of been mroe than 10K people i think. and he tought them a lesson, but its definately human nature to ignore our lessons and find out things for our selves. Have you ever known a child to be told that a pan is hot, and they dont ever reach for it again?
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Post by Charlie » Tue Nov 12, 2002 5:50 pm

Yeah, basically what Cannonfodder sez... I'm on his wavelength... it's scarey!!!

Other comment,

sometimes a game is just a game... this is just a pc game. by playing cs i have learned things about pc's in the forums, i have met some cool people in the forums and in real life now...

when you are "dead" in cs, you can talk with the other players and watch and learn stuff from those what's still playing...

it's a game... it' supposed to be fun... that's all.

1337 CS skillz will not make you a Navy Seal, or some kinda 1337 merc... or an al queda terrorist... there is no comparison between the reality and the virtuality...

it's like playing chess, but yer a pawn, with a first person perspective... it's only a GAME!!!
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Post by bx|Mr. Cod » Tue Nov 12, 2002 6:17 pm

UCSDCanonfodder wrote:

With the capacity of freedom comes the capacity to love. With the capacity to love comes the opposite, the capacity to not love or be apathetic. With this capacity comes the capacity of doing evil.

You can't be an automaton and love. Is love really love without any alternative options?
This is a justification, not an explanation.

My point is that we could not have been given this capacity by a being of 'infinite perfection' in the first place. Unless you accept that God is as capable of creating evil as he is good, in which case the devil is redundant and the term 'mercyful' is optimistic because it can't be entirely true!


And once again the symbolism and/or literal truth in the slaughtering of innocent animals has been ignored in the Noah's Ark story.
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Re: wow

Post by bx|Mr. Cod » Tue Nov 12, 2002 6:26 pm

redBULLman wrote:fodder, you lost me...all i know is that when we were given free will at the garden(this is speaking from christian POV in case u didnt know). it gave us the capacity to do anything we wanted, worship anything we wanted, do anything we wanted. But God wanted us to have this free will so that we could see what life has, and if we choose to turn from him, then in the end, we'll realize our wrongs, and its our fault. He didnt create us just to destroy us, i meant we're all here now arent we?and back with noah's time, there couldnt of been mroe than 10K people i think. and he tought them a lesson, but its definately human nature to ignore our lessons and find out things for our selves. Have you ever known a child to be told that a pan is hot, and they dont ever reach for it again?
This comes accross as very confused to me.

You said " He didn't create us to destroy us."
Really? I recall you earlier saying that this was part of a grand plan...

You said "it's 'definitely' human nature to ignore our lessons and find things out for ourselves."
Interesting, so presumably God created us with an inherent disregard for his lessons (human nature, by your own statement) and then proceeded to teach us one by decimating everything...even though he knew we would ignore it...You have lost me.

And you used an analogy involving children, this is curious. Because in the Bible children are innocent. Which leads me to remind you that children died in these floods. You want this story to be symbolic, so whats the symbolism of that?
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Post by Diggity » Tue Nov 12, 2002 11:06 pm

This is a justification, not an explanation.
A justification would be: its ok because God is all-powerful and knows what he is doing.

This is an explanation. As in capacity to do evil and to love stem from free will. So if God in his perfection gave man the capacity to love, then he also gave him the capacity to perform evil.

Let me put it in these terms

if X = Love and Y = Evil Z = Free will and G = God

God -> Free will

Free will-> Evil
Free will-> Love

Therefore
God -> Freewill -> Evil & God-> Freewill -> Love

You are treating it as God->Evil which is a very limited explanation
You said " He didn't create us to destroy us."
Really? I recall you earlier saying that this was part of a grand plan...

You said "it's 'definitely' human nature to ignore our lessons and find things out for ourselves."
Can you give a direct quote from where I said that? I believe I said
And you used an analogy involving children, this is curious. Because in the Bible children are innocent. Which leads me to remind you that children died in these floods
Your outlook at the moment is that of death as something terrible in these circumstances. I am trying to challenge that assumption.

Again there are worse fates in life than death
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heh

Post by redBULLman » Tue Nov 12, 2002 11:11 pm

wow i really suck at arguing and discussing my point, maybe thats why all my papers have been B's instead of A's.

There are alot of things that i dont understand, and that i cant explain, and that i can't decifer, as you can tell already.

All i know is what God has done in my life, and thats why i have faith in him. There are so many ways to be cynical about it and rip apart every aspect of Christianity, and i cant bring up a strong argument to support it, all i know is what i believe. I believe that God caused the flood for a reason, although i dont know that reason, i suspect that it was to teach us a lesson, and the fact that he probly knew that this lesson would not be learned by many, i think is why he did things like that more than once, for instance, Soddom and Gomorrah and the Flood of noah's time, reached different people, in different walks of life.

Why God gave us free will, knowing that we'd disobey him, im not sure, but maybe its a sifting kind of thing, even though he loves us all and wants all of us in his kingdom. I think he loves us so much he wants us to realize that for ourselves, and have the chance to look around and say, hey nothing is better than him.

this is my opinion of course, i dont mean to say to those of you who are of different beliefs that my religion is better than yours, cause in truth we all dont know where were gonna end up in the end. We dont know if Buddism is the way, or if christianity is the way.

But i believe what i believe, and i feel im leading a healthy, respectful good life, and im not hurting anyone in the process, so i think its all good.

as far as video games are concerned, i know and beleive that its just a game, and i personally are not effected greatly by it, besides the fact that it helps me procrastinate on my work too much. But for things like children, who believe all they see, ya know? i was just brining another discussion to the table, thats all.

Now back to this stupid essay on the opium war....
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