Religion

politics, religion, science, art, barack obama, belgium, etc.

What is your Religion?

Born-Again Christian (or just non-denominational)
9
7%
Buddist
4
3%
Catholic
11
8%
Atheist
48
36%
Atheist
48
36%
Pagan
4
3%
Jewish
3
2%
Lutheran/Protestant/Baptist (other denoms of Christianity)
5
4%
 
Total votes: 132
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Charlie
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Re: Religion

Post by Charlie » Thu Feb 10, 2011 4:48 pm

Bogey wrote:The ancient Greeks got along just fine before the Abrahamic religions reached them. They had laws and well functioning governments for their time, and while they certainly had different morals than we have now, they weren't necessarily worse than the the Jewish morals of the time.
Yes the ancient Greeks got along fine (except with themselves it seems)... There is the Golden age of Athens from the classical period of ancient Greece which spanned about 186 years. In terms of literature, arts, and philosophy... it was remarkable for that period. Though it fell to Sparta some during the Peloponnesian War. Now Sparta, which imposed its cultural imperialism over Athens, was quite militaristic -- though exaggerated in the movie "300" there is more truth there than one might think. Sparta used Hegemony to seek "harmony" with neighboring peoples. It sought to impose its way of life upon others -- making them subordinate city states of Sparta. Might makes right. Sparta rose to prominence in 6th century BC. Its dominance -- broken in the Battle of Leuctra (371 BC) -- endured a brief time, about 230 years or so.

So... the civilized Athenians were indeed on to something -- in the way of an enlightened civilization, if you will. Though unfortunately they were a bit of a flash int he pan. Sparta, militaristic and tyrannical... was relatively unimpressed with Athens. So I don't think ancient Greece ever really pulled it together; of its two brightest -- and diametrically opposed -- stars, Sparta just really kicked the snot out of Athens.

As you said... Hinduism would be the main one. It certainly has been around and does bear further thought. Doesn't it?
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Charlie
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Re: Religion

Post by Charlie » Thu Feb 10, 2011 4:53 pm

CaptainTripps wrote:
Bogey wrote: Charlie asked about which came first: the ten commandments or the basic tenets of civilization.
Yea but I gathered he was referring to America. Hope so anyway.....but I'm an optimist.
Sorry to dissapoint. I'm a tad slow at times. :ahhh:
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Re: Religion

Post by Charlie » Thu Feb 10, 2011 4:57 pm

Django wrote:If you people are saying that Morals predate religion, you are on the right track. If you are saying, that
societies lived just fine before religion, thats correct too ,but you must all realize that the social norms
that came first were the ones who shaped the religious beliefs to come ,and not the other way around.
I would posit that a moralistic society without fundamental religious norms is fleeting (for the most part). A militaristic atheistic regime would probably last a bit longer than the previous -- and have greater influence upon its neighbors. Israel has endured -- amazingly so despite how many times it has come close to being completely destroyed. China has endured certainly... but it has never really been big on things like human rights.

I would think that religion came about to rail against so-called "social norms." Whether it was brought about by man or Creator... is an entire discussion to itself.
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Re: Religion

Post by Bogey » Thu Feb 10, 2011 5:43 pm

Charlie wrote:I would posit that a moralistic society without fundamental religious norms is fleeting (for the most part). A militaristic atheistic regime would probably last a bit longer than the previous -- and have greater influence upon its neighbors.
What about a mostly atheist democracy like Sweden?
Where can you find fault with them that you cannot find in a more religious country?
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Re: Religion

Post by Charlie » Thu Feb 10, 2011 6:35 pm

Hmmm... Sweden?... that's a tough one...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden#Religion

I should think North Korea is more irreligious (atheistic) than Sweden. Yes?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_korea#Religion
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Re: Religion

Post by Bogey » Thu Feb 10, 2011 9:35 pm

Charlie wrote:Hmmm... Sweden?... that's a tough one...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden#Religion

I should think North Korea is more irreligious (atheistic) than Sweden. Yes?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_korea#Religion
From your wiki page:
Despite a high formal membership rate in the Church of Sweden, some studies have found Sweden to be one of the least religious countries in the world, with one of the highest levels of atheism. According to different studies, between 46% and 85% of Swedes do not believe in God. In the Eurostat survey, 23% of Swedish citizens responded that "they believe there is a God", whereas 53% answered that "they believe there is some sort of spirit or life force" and 23% that "they do not believe there is any sort of spirit, God, or life force".
Only because Kim doesn't want any imaginary friends outshining him. While other religions are allowed, most NK students are taught that the Kim's came down from heaven to rule them or something. Atheism doesn't cause states like NK, if that is what you are implying.
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Re: Religion

Post by Charlie » Thu Feb 10, 2011 9:38 pm

I imply merely that North Korea appears to be a more atheistic populace than Sweden.
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Re: Religion

Post by Cc_Hairy » Thu Feb 10, 2011 10:29 pm

Image
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Re: Religion

Post by joe » Thu Feb 10, 2011 11:05 pm

Charlie wrote:I imply merely that North Korea appears to be a more atheistic populace than Sweden.
the opposite is true. 100% of north koreans believe kim jung-il is a god
i'm looking forward to that winter
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Re: Religion

Post by Charlie » Fri Feb 11, 2011 12:27 pm

You say To-may-to, I say To-mah-to...
Wikipedia wrote:North Korea's government exercises virtual total control over society and imposes state sanctioned atheism, and the cult of personality of Kim Jung Il and Kim Il Sung have been described as a political religion.[68] Although the North Korean constitution states that freedom of religion is permitted,[69] free religious activities no longer exist in North Korea as the government sponsors religious groups only to create an illusion of religious freedom.[70][71] Cardinal Nicolas Cheong Jin-suk has said that, "There's no knowledge of priests surviving persecution that came in the late forties, when 166 priests and religious were killed or kidnapped." which includes the Roman Catholic bishop of Pyongyang, Francis Hong Yong-ho.[72]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_atheism
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Re: Religion

Post by Bogey » Fri Feb 11, 2011 3:50 pm

So, most of NK is atheist (not by choice, mind you), do you think that is grounds for the belief that countries that are mostly atheist can't last?
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Re: Religion

Post by joe » Fri Feb 11, 2011 4:23 pm

i still don't agree. in NK the religion of the leader/state as god has replaced jesus. same end result.
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Re: Religion

Post by Charlie » Fri Feb 11, 2011 4:57 pm

Bogey wrote:...do you think that is grounds for the belief that countries that are mostly atheist can't last?
My belief is that a country that is all about man-made morality is at odds with itself. It will have a hard enough time perpetuating itself because of internal discord, much less develop any ability to have any impact for the greater good on a populace outside itself on a global scale.

My belief how a society based on divine morality would differ from this is probably best summed up in a book called, The 5,000 Year Leap by W. Cleon Skousen.
Last edited by Charlie on Fri Feb 11, 2011 5:00 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Religion

Post by Charlie » Fri Feb 11, 2011 4:57 pm

joe wrote:i still don't agree...
Then at the very least... we can agree... to disagree.
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Re: Religion

Post by Bogey » Fri Feb 11, 2011 5:50 pm

Charlie wrote:My belief is that a country that is all about man-made morality is at odds with itself. It will have a hard enough time perpetuating itself because of internal discord, much less develop any ability to have any impact for the greater good on a populace outside itself on a global scale.
But all morality can only be said to be man made, considering there is no evidence towards anything else.
On what are you basing your argument that man made morality is at odds with itself?
Last edited by Bogey on Wed Feb 16, 2011 12:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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