do you prefer people in your life to be simple or complex?

politics, religion, science, art, barack obama, belgium, etc.

do you prefer people in your life to be simple or complex?

Poll ended at Thu Mar 10, 2011 4:31 pm

simple
11
23%
complex
36
77%
 
Total votes: 47
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Bogey
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Re: do you prefer people in your life to be simple or complex?

Post by Bogey » Tue Feb 15, 2011 7:46 pm

King_Fluffy wrote:
mbaxter wrote:Conclusion: There is no proof that god exists..
'There is no proof that god doesn't exist'
I think you're missing the point that it doesn't matter that there is no proof that god doesn't exist.
The fact that there is no evidence for the claim that god exists is enough to dismiss that claim until evidence can be shown.

If someone were to say "there definitely is no god", then the burden would be on them to prove it, but a person does not have to prove that there is no god if they are simply saying "I do not believe there is a god", as they are merely saying "I am not convinced".
The atheists here are saying "Why should I have to prove you wrong in order to remain unconvinced? It is your duty to prove that your belief is correct. I have no obligation to do your job for you."
King_Fluffy wrote:That's what I said at the first post of this page, that neither side has any proof. So no one knows.
Right, but atheists in general don't claim to know. Religious people do.
All any atheists here are arguing is that the beliefs of religious people are based on unsound logic, not that god absolutely does not exist.
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Re: do you prefer people in your life to be simple or complex?

Post by Pentagram.J2 » Tue Feb 15, 2011 7:49 pm

returning to thread because i want to ask this question

what if someone (me for instance) has lots of doubts, and doesn't feel 100% that God is real, but has faith in the chance that he is?
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Re: do you prefer people in your life to be simple or complex?

Post by Bogey » Tue Feb 15, 2011 8:23 pm

Pentagram.J2 wrote:returning to thread because i want to ask this question

what if someone (me for instance) has lots of doubts, and doesn't feel 100% that God is real, but has faith in the chance that he is?
It depends if you're religious or not.
You could be (for example) a catholic with doubts, or if you aren't religious you could just be a deist with doubts.
There might be a better term for what you are, but I don't know what it is.

Some people would call what you are an agnostic, but it's an improper use of the term.
An agnostic is an atheist who believes it is impossible to know whether or not there is a god (but that raises the question: how do they know whether or not it is impossible?).
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joe
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Re: do you prefer people in your life to be simple or complex?

Post by joe » Tue Feb 15, 2011 9:41 pm

Pentagram.J2 wrote:what if someone (me for instance) has lots of doubts, and doesn't feel 100% that God is real, but has faith in the chance that he is?
feelings and faith are not reality.

is there evidence for it? if not, it doesn't exist.
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Re: do you prefer people in your life to be simple or complex?

Post by Josh43558 » Tue Feb 15, 2011 10:53 pm

Bogey wrote:
King_Fluffy wrote:
mbaxter wrote:Conclusion: There is no proof that god exists..
'There is no proof that god doesn't exist'
I think you're missing the point that it doesn't matter that there is no proof that god doesn't exist.
The fact that there is no evidence for the claim that god exists is enough to dismiss that claim until evidence can be shown.

If someone were to say "there definitely is no god", then the burden would be on them to prove it, but a person does not have to prove that there is no god if they are simply saying "I do not believe there is a god", as they are merely saying "I am not convinced".
The atheists here are saying "Why should I have to prove you wrong in order to remain unconvinced? It is your duty to prove that your belief is correct. I have no obligation to do your job for you."
King_Fluffy wrote:That's what I said at the first post of this page, that neither side has any proof. So no one knows.
Right, but atheists in general don't claim to know. Religious people do.
All any atheists here are arguing is that the beliefs of religious people are based on unsound logic, not that god absolutely does not exist.

Thank you so much for clarifying. This thread just gets more and more confusing untail WHAM! You make it all make sense again. I think the issue now is that Joe was asserting that God did not exist.
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Re: do you prefer people in your life to be simple or complex?

Post by Bogey » Tue Feb 15, 2011 11:01 pm

joe wrote:
Pentagram.J2 wrote:what if someone (me for instance) has lots of doubts, and doesn't feel 100% that God is real, but has faith in the chance that he is?
feelings and faith are not reality.

is there evidence for it? if not, it doesn't exist.
There could be evidence that we don't know about.
But I do agree that it is foolish to believe in something without any evidence.
Josh43558 wrote:I think the issue now is that Joe was asserting that God did not exist.
Unfortunately for Joe, that shifts the burden of proof over to him to prove that there isn't a god.
It doesn't seem like a very wise position to take.
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Re: do you prefer people in your life to be simple or complex?

Post by Josh43558 » Tue Feb 15, 2011 11:16 pm

getting around to this semi-late:
mbaxter wrote:I suspect joe's just talking about the idea that many religious people resist facts. Not all, but many. Examples include the age of the earth and the facts behind the theory of evolution (note how I worded that. I'm not here to debate evolution. I'm talking about the facts that are there, not the extrapolation bit). More extreme examples of ignorance include the belief that humans and dinosaurs roamed the earth together.
Pope John Paul II declared that evolution lined up fine with Catholic beliefs, and seeing as Catholics wrote the bible... (protestants didn't exist as an organized group at that time) ...Christians shouldn't have a problem with evolution at all.

"In an address on 22 October 1996 to the Pontifical Academy of Sciences, Pope John Paul II reaffirmed the Church's openness to the theory of evolution"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_and ... hn_Paul_II
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Re: do you prefer people in your life to be simple or complex?

Post by Django » Tue Feb 15, 2011 11:20 pm

Yeah, but that's the Catholic church ,and not DUMB AMERICAN PROTESTANTISM
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Re: do you prefer people in your life to be simple or complex?

Post by Josh43558 » Tue Feb 15, 2011 11:32 pm

Django wrote:Yeah, but that's the Catholic church ,and not DUMB AMERICAN PROTESTANTISM

I at least shut up the Catholics xP

on a side note, I was raised Catholic and i'm only 17, so threads like these make me think a lot 8)
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Re: do you prefer people in your life to be simple or complex?

Post by Pentagram.J2 » Tue Feb 15, 2011 11:34 pm

uh, no you didn't Josh. I already take enough offense here for being a (lapsed) Catholic, no need to increase it even more.

edit: and yeah, bogey, i identify as a Lapsed Catholic essentially someone who has stopped practicing the religion's rituals, but still identifies as a catholic at the most basic level.
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Re: do you prefer people in your life to be simple or complex?

Post by Josh43558 » Tue Feb 15, 2011 11:45 pm

lapsed Catholic would mean you aren't Catholic anymore. You can't call yourself Amish if you live with the rest of the world. Then you would have to call yourself Ex-Amish. Current practicing Roman Catholics follow the pope on some level.
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Re: do you prefer people in your life to be simple or complex?

Post by Pentagram.J2 » Tue Feb 15, 2011 11:48 pm

"The flow if time is always cruel. Its speed seems different for each person, but no one can change it..."

"The wind......it is blowing...."
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Re: do you prefer people in your life to be simple or complex?

Post by Josh43558 » Wed Feb 16, 2011 12:28 am

here lies my third misunderstanding on joe.to. This didn't lead to a ban, but it bugs me all the same. starting new thread on giving me advice on how to avoid internet miscommunication... back to asking joe about proving that God doesn't exist or whatever we decided were talking about.
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Re: do you prefer people in your life to be simple or complex?

Post by Gr|m » Wed Feb 16, 2011 12:30 am

Bogey wrote: No, but it has evolved.
It is no longer as large a burden to take care of the weak as it was over a thousand years ago, and with medical advances we've reached the point where many illnesses aren't permanent or are at least far less a burden. We live in a society where someone like Stephen Hawking can still produce great works despite his condition.
If we reached the point were taking care of someone like Hawking meant life or death for a community, I think you'd begin to see a pretty ugly shift in moral values.
I think most of us take for granted the moral luxuries our society affords us.
Seems like you're making some pretty big assumptions here. Are you honestly implying that we only value other human life when it is convenient? That seems like a "morally weak" position, and according to the morality based on objective morality, non-Christians would agree.
Bogey wrote:
Gr¦m wrote:What moral convictions does an atheist have to abstain from cursing someone out who does them dirty? What moral convictions does an atheist have to donate to Haiti? I'd love to hear your responses to those questions, or a more general response towards moral convictions in general.
As an atheist, when someone does wrong by me I have no problem cursing at them. I wouldn't ever become violent except as a last resort. When someone does something wrong they should be held accountable, and when nothing can be legally done they should at least feel shame. If I do something wrong to someone that results in me being called a dirty name, chances are I won't do that sort of thing anymore. Though, I do think a person should use a bit of restraint to prevent some situations from escalating.
You consider yourself a moral person, I think?, yet you wouldn't show full restraint? I may not understand your definition of "moral" but at what point does someone cross the line from being "moral" to "immoral"?

Would you consider the Christian position (towards the first instance) a weaker position? If someone did me dirty, and if I was 'following Jesus', I expect that I would not curse him back and instead try to have a more edifying response. Is that morally weaker or morally stronger?
Bogey wrote: As for donating to Haiti, I've said it in other threads and I mentioned it earlier in this post, we have evolved feelings of compassion for those less fortunate than us.
In the ancient world, those who felt compassion for each other worked together and survived, and those that did not work together failed to survive (this is a simplification, but I've already explained this in several other threads).
You see many of the same kind of behaviors in animals that live in groups, though due to our success we are a bit more "advanced" in this regard.
Of course, the biological aspect only accounts for our base feelings and behaviors towards other humans in peril. Our more complex feelings and behaviors are the result of thousands of years of philosophical and moral fine tuning.
So because we have evolved feelings of compassion for the poor, you give to the poor? An atheists' primary reason for helping those less fortunate is "because it feels good evolutionarily"? That's masturbation- simply selfishly pleasuring yourself physically.
Pentagram.J2 wrote:no, actually, it doesn't

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lapsed_Catholic
seems like a sort of made up term.. but whatever.
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Re: do you prefer people in your life to be simple or complex?

Post by joe » Wed Feb 16, 2011 2:06 am

Bogey wrote:But I do agree that it is foolish to believe in something without any evidence.
so you're a believer in the talking dildo too. that's a shame.
Bogey wrote:Unfortunately for Joe, that shifts the burden of proof over to him to prove that there isn't a god.
It doesn't seem like a very wise position to take.
that's not how it works. when i start claiming stuff exists, then you can ask me for proof.
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