do you prefer people in your life to be simple or complex?

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do you prefer people in your life to be simple or complex?

Poll ended at Thu Mar 10, 2011 4:31 pm

simple
11
23%
complex
36
77%
 
Total votes: 47
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stickbeast
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Re: do you prefer people in your life to be simple or complex?

Post by stickbeast » Sun Feb 13, 2011 5:10 am

There is NOTHING that tells atheists to go out and be an asshole.

Religion sometimes DOES tell people this.

It's as simple as that.

Personal Story: My family is mostly Jehovah's Witnesses. My cousin took a vow/was baptised/made the dedication to God. She did one of those big "sins" (which might consist of sex outside marriage or used drugs...i have no idea what she did) and was ostracized from the family for seven years until she was officially reinstated.

Story: A friends' relatives' son gets into a car accident and needs a blood transfusion to survive. Since blood is sacred for Jehovah's Witnesses the son "can't" get one. And he dies.

Story: The rule of the Catholic Church is so strong in the Philippines, the use of condoms is not taught in their sex ed classes. My girlfriends friend went there to help teach sex ed over there, and she had to explain to the kids what a condom was since they had never even heard of it or seen one before. In the poorer regions, families live on less than a dollar a day, and have 7-9 children in the family ON AVERAGE.

Last Story I can think of ATM: A group of missionaries from America use their christian doctrine to teach others the evils of temptation to homosexuality, and a few weeks later homosexuality is a crime punishable by DEATH.

Religion is dangerously irresponsible and only holds us back. You praise the good side, loving your neighbor, helping other people, but these are not exclusively religious values. I don't need to be Christian to know not to kill people, I don't need to be a Buddhist to not be materialistic etc. In some cases religion is particularly damaging to ones self-esteem, forcing you to feel guilt and shame for your lowly existence. Believe that god loves all his children, but know that his kindness is undeserved, and that you must thank him and humble yourself before him, don't question his apparent negligence and apathy, he works in mysterious ways. He's right, you're wrong, no matter what. Fuck that noise.
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Re: do you prefer people in your life to be simple or complex?

Post by Bogey » Sun Feb 13, 2011 5:40 am

stickbeast wrote:Religion is dangerously irresponsible and only holds us back. You praise the good side, loving your neighbor, helping other people, but these are not exclusively religious values. I don't need to be Christian to know not to kill people, I don't need to be a Buddhist to not be materialistic etc. In some cases religion is particularly damaging to ones self-esteem, forcing you to feel guilt and shame for your lowly existence. Believe that god loves all his children, but know that his kindness is undeserved, and that you must thank him and humble yourself before him, don't question his apparent negligence and apathy, he works in mysterious ways. He's right, you're wrong, no matter what. Fuck that noise.
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Re: do you prefer people in your life to be simple or complex?

Post by King_Fluffy » Sun Feb 13, 2011 5:47 am

stickbeast wrote:There is NOTHING that tells atheists to go out and be an asshole.

Religion sometimes DOES tell people this.
So why do some atheists be assholes for no reason?
At least the religous people believe it's for a good cause (note: I'm not saying it is, I think it's silly to justify that way)
Only difference between them is that theists think there's a bit of good in what they're doing, atheists know that there isn't yet still do it anyway. Sort of makes them worse(not overall; just about this), in my opinion.
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Re: do you prefer people in your life to be simple or complex?

Post by joe » Sun Feb 13, 2011 5:56 am

King_Fluffy wrote:So why do some atheists be assholes for no reason?
for the same reason some religious people are assholes for no reason.

but only religion can force the NON-assholes to be assholes. atheism can't.
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Re: do you prefer people in your life to be simple or complex?

Post by Josh43558 » Sun Feb 13, 2011 6:36 am

Like i said, just because religion can justify evil doesn't mean that religion itself is evil. That's the thinking that made Catcher in the Rye a banned book in America for a while.
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Re: do you prefer people in your life to be simple or complex?

Post by Rat-morningstar » Sun Feb 13, 2011 6:51 am

Josh43558 wrote:Like i said, just because religion can justify evil doesn't mean that religion itself is evil.
so if i go around convincing people murder is perfectly ok and they have to do it or their lives will be miserable i'm not a completely evil fuckbag?
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Re: do you prefer people in your life to be simple or complex?

Post by Josh43558 » Sun Feb 13, 2011 7:15 am

You are, but there's nowhere in the bible that God tells people to do that. He reserves the power for himself. And then you know, the vatican can screw that up for everybody at times, but the doctrine behind their words are still a message of peace. I've never read other books of monotheistic religions before, but f'sho the Bible doesn't say that it's good to hurt others.
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Re: do you prefer people in your life to be simple or complex?

Post by NightFantom » Sun Feb 13, 2011 7:44 am

joe wrote:
King_Fluffy wrote:So why do some atheists be assholes for no reason?
for the same reason some religious people are assholes for no reason.

but only religion can force the NON-assholes to be assholes. atheism can't.
i don't think there's any major religion that does that

there are however, people in that religion doing that, using religion as an excuse
this, to me, is no different than a drugs baron forcing people to do stuff


if atheists are assholes, they just are and have no excuse
if theists are assholes, they just are and have no excuse (religion is no excuse to be an asshole to atheists, but neither is it an excuse to be an asshole to theists)
that seems like a huge amount of work for no good reason - joe
or, you know, sarcasm - Neelpos
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Re: do you prefer people in your life to be simple or complex?

Post by CaptainTripps » Sun Feb 13, 2011 9:52 am

stickbeast wrote:There is NOTHING that tells atheists to go out and be an asshole.

Religion sometimes DOES tell people this.

It's as simple as that.

Personal Story: My family is mostly Jehovah's Witnesses. My cousin took a vow/was baptised/made the dedication to God. She did one of those big "sins" (which might consist of sex outside marriage or used drugs...i have no idea what she did) and was ostracized from the family for seven years until she was officially reinstated.

Story: A friends' relatives' son gets into a car accident and needs a blood transfusion to survive. Since blood is sacred for Jehovah's Witnesses the son "can't" get one. And he dies.

Story: The rule of the Catholic Church is so strong in the Philippines, the use of condoms is not taught in their sex ed classes. My girlfriends friend went there to help teach sex ed over there, and she had to explain to the kids what a condom was since they had never even heard of it or seen one before. In the poorer regions, families live on less than a dollar a day, and have 7-9 children in the family ON AVERAGE.

Last Story I can think of ATM: A group of missionaries from America use their christian doctrine to teach others the evils of temptation to homosexuality, and a few weeks later homosexuality is a crime punishable by DEATH.

Religion is dangerously irresponsible and only holds us back. You praise the good side, loving your neighbor, helping other people, but these are not exclusively religious values. I don't need to be Christian to know not to kill people, I don't need to be a Buddhist to not be materialistic etc. In some cases religion is particularly damaging to ones self-esteem, forcing you to feel guilt and shame for your lowly existence. Believe that god loves all his children, but know that his kindness is undeserved, and that you must thank him and humble yourself before him, don't question his apparent negligence and apathy, he works in mysterious ways. He's right, you're wrong, no matter what. Fuck that noise.

You realize that there are many, many different types of religion right? And that more than a few require very little beyond being good people? Not all of them say you have to go turn everybody else into you. But continue to generalize and use the worst case scenario. I personally have never been led to be a jerkass to someone else because of the religious beliefs I was raised on, even if I'm no longer a practitioner.

This is of course turning into another anti-religion rant thread, which I have been trying to avoid completely, but come the fuck on. You sound as hateful and bigoted as any crazy Christian fundy, and Bogey I'll say that that anti-theism is definitely a quality fairly intrinsic to many atheists (not all but quite a few especially the more vocal ones). When that leads to persecution of religious groups it's definitely seated in them being atheists.
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Re: do you prefer people in your life to be simple or complex?

Post by Rat-morningstar » Sun Feb 13, 2011 11:53 am

Josh43558 wrote:You are, but there's nowhere in the bible that God tells people to do that. He reserves the power for himself. And then you know, the vatican can screw that up for everybody at times, but the doctrine behind their words are still a message of peace. I've never read other books of monotheistic religions before, but f'sho the Bible doesn't say that it's good to hurt others.
the bible says plenty of times to stone unfaithfull women, or gay people...
so yes, the bible DOES say that
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Re: do you prefer people in your life to be simple or complex?

Post by Jason » Sun Feb 13, 2011 1:03 pm

Bogey wrote:
stickbeast wrote:Religion is dangerously irresponsible and only holds us back. You praise the good side, loving your neighbor, helping other people, but these are not exclusively religious values. I don't need to be Christian to know not to kill people, I don't need to be a Buddhist to not be materialistic etc. In some cases religion is particularly damaging to ones self-esteem, forcing you to feel guilt and shame for your lowly existence. Believe that god loves all his children, but know that his kindness is undeserved, and that you must thank him and humble yourself before him, don't question his apparent negligence and apathy, he works in mysterious ways. He's right, you're wrong, no matter what. Fuck that noise.
:banana:
I also banana this.

Also that story is nuts. To have to be "Officially reinstated" to your own family after 7 fucking years. I'd tell them to eat my SHIT.
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Re: do you prefer people in your life to be simple or complex?

Post by Jason » Sun Feb 13, 2011 1:03 pm

While smoking drugs and sexing*
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Re: do you prefer people in your life to be simple or complex?

Post by Dr Lecter » Sun Feb 13, 2011 1:43 pm

I really feel like people are missing joe's point.

He isn't saying every religious person is crazy.
He isn't saying all religion is bad.

He is saying, as far as I have read, is that religion doctrine can create reasons for people to commit criminal acts(vague general term for simplicity) in the name of religion.

If there was no religion there wouldn't be mass followings of "rogue" believers. You do not need someone to tell you what is right and wrong. But when you have an undeniable, unquestionable source of knowledge that is being transmitted to one crazy who in turn makes a giant following of crazies; why would you justify the suffering these people cause in the name of religion so the others can benefit from whatever good they get out of religion?

I suppose this could just go to the benefit of the greater good(to allow people to feel like life has an actual reason and death is just a begining) for the suffering of the few. But that would be a whole other argument.
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Re: do you prefer people in your life to be simple or complex?

Post by stickbeast » Sun Feb 13, 2011 1:58 pm

Josh43558 wrote:Like i said, just because religion can justify evil doesn't mean that religion itself is evil. That's the thinking that made Catcher in the Rye a banned book in America for a while.
No, the reason it was banned was because it talked about sex and had the word FUCK in it.

The Catcher is just a book, if the bible were just a book there would be no problem. The problem is religious faith that stems from the bible, particularly the faith that inspires irresponsible and sometimes immoral behavior.
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Re: do you prefer people in your life to be simple or complex?

Post by Gr|m » Sun Feb 13, 2011 4:28 pm

There's always a huge breakdown when people take things from the bible out of context. Instead of taking the time to try to understand it, they look for ways that they can pin Christians down using their own text... that's usually not a good idea if you have not even read it for yourself.

Rat:
"You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. "

Take the time to read this small passage from John 8:
The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group and said to Jesus, “Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?” They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.

But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, “Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.” Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.

At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. Jesus straightened up and asked her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?”

“No one, sir,” she said.

“Then neither do I condemn you,” Jesus declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin.”
This woman was, by the Old Testament law, LEGALLY allowed to be stoned, yet Jesus' response leaves her uncondemned.
Bogey wrote: 1. Many of the forefathers weren't religious, but rather deist, agnostic, or atheist.
and
2. Many people read the same religious texts and arrive at vastly different conclusions.
I know it may be hard for our religious folk (since this is the way most seem to argue their side), but let's try to keep false dilemmas out of our discussions.
1. Sure, that may be true, but take note of the society that they lived in. Like it or not, they were using Biblical foundations and principles, even if they were doing it subconsciously. Locke secularized Christian teaching.

If these unalienable rights came from experience then it would seem contradictory for them to be "natural rights". Otherwise one person's idea of what our rights are could be totally different from another person's. So these rights are either something innate to our nature (not based on experiences) or they are largely from another source.

For Christians, the source is the bible... I think Locke's was too (indirectly).

2. Also a very true point. But that's expected with anything. I look at a painting and may describe it completely different than you, but it's still there. I believe there is objective morality... some of us see it clearer than others- and I don't claim to have "it" completely by any means. But the fact that is is there leaves something that I am striving to live by and find. While everyone's morality is subjective, I believe that mine is based off of something objective.
Bogey wrote: as long as society bases those morals on an objective reality (e.g. not religion) society stands to continually benefit more and more from this approach to morality.
So what objective reality do you suggest or think we should base our morals on? I'm not sure I understand what that would mean

Bogey wrote: If our morals can only come from the god of Abraham, then how did other cultures develop their own moral structures? They arrived at their morals the same way middle eastern cultures and western cultures did. They thought about it. They observed what benefited their societies and what didn't.
I don't believe that our morals only came from the god of Abraham... I believe there is an objective morality that humanity is trying to reach.

We don't help the poor because it benefits our society... that would be sickening. We help the poor because they are HUMAN BEINGS just like us, and we, for some strange reason, know that we should be caring for them. We have come closer to the objective moral realization that we should value EVERY human life, whether they are young, old, handicapped, poor, rich, etc. The Romans would leave weak children out to die... that benefited society, so why don't we still do that? Has our societies moral structure evolved into something weak?

So, I believe that God revealed moral truths to us through the Bible, but I don't necessarily believe that the bible is necessary to understand them. I think Gandhi got the picture better than the majority of Christians do today. I have to step back and admit though that I can blab on during these conversations but still not have a very clear understanding.

ps. I think we all understand what joe is saying. I just have to disagree... If there were no God or true morality that I could try to grasp, I would be a much much more selfish person. Call me "weak" all you want- I have NO problem admitting that I am weak without my faith in Jesus.
What moral convictions does an atheist have to abstain from cursing someone out who does them dirty? What moral convictions does an atheist have to donate to Haiti? I'd love to hear your responses to those questions, or a more general response towards moral convictions in general.
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