Map Making Assistence Please

Like such as the NIPPER
User avatar
stickbeast
Posts: 2316
Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2009 9:31 pm

Map Making Assistence Please

Post by stickbeast » Tue Feb 22, 2011 11:57 pm

My map idea: A CTF map with Red and Blu bases inside volcanos in the middle of the ocean, connected in 4 ways.
Image

Method 1. Most direct: A narrow bridge that goes over the water and connects the two bases.

Method 2. 2nd Most Direct: A wide glass tunnel that goes beneath the water's surface on the ocean's floor.
Image

Method 3. Least Direct: It is possible to swim from one base to the other through entrances underwater.
Image

Image

Method 4. Demo and Engineer specific: The Bases are JUST far enough for an engineer to sentry jump from the top of both volcanos.

Eventually, when the team A caps, team B's volcano base will erupt and kill everyone and vice versa. Possibly: If Team B's intel is not touched by A within a certain time, A's Base will erupt. If B's intel is allowed to reset, team A's base will also erupt. I'm not too worried about this at the moment...I'm more worried about the functionality of the map itself.

Problems:

Water: I have no leaks, I add water and on the surface everything is fine, but when I go under everything gets weird. I can see through some areas as if I had textured the walls with NoDraw. The water encasing the tunnel (see Method 2) is completely transparent, and allows you to see as far as the skybox, and in some cases through the outside wall of the bases...

Image
(You should not be able to clearly see the spiral staircase inside Blu through the top of the glass like that...)
Image
(the above image was taken underwater from the secret image in Method 3)


Optimization: I have no idea how to make things easier on lower systems. I avg about 100 in most places in the map, but there are areas I can stand in and look in a certain direction, and my fps goes from 100 to 20. If I stand on the top of Red base, and look down, i drop to 5. But in Blu, it only drops to 40.

Any ideas on how to solve these problems? Ill post more pics if it help. Thanks in advance.
Django wrote:Why would you want to eat a deer, that animal is dirty.
Image
User avatar
Wolsk
Im hungry, i need a fur burger
<font color=blue>Im hungry, i need a fur burger</font>
Posts: 9910
Joined: Wed Aug 20, 2008 4:22 pm
Location: under your bed

Re: Map Making Assistence Please

Post by Wolsk » Wed Feb 23, 2011 10:32 am

There are plenty of topics on the TF2 mapping wiki for optimization.
Things like NoDraw are what you need to use to optimize.
I'm not entirely sure what your problem is right now.
What I would try is removing your NoDraws and other things you used for optimization.
Worry about those last (functionality first, speed later).
Check to make sure there are absolutely no holes.
I know you said there aren't, but doing a hole test and looking in every corner are different.
Looking around, you can often find things that don't always show up in the hole test.
Everything must be VERY precise with no pieces sticking out.
Also, I've always had a problem with water in TF2, so also make sure you are using a good water.
There are many different kinds of water to choose from.
If you want, I'd be willing to check the map for holes.

I hope this helps.
User avatar
koko
[citation needed]
Posts: 4159
Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Hayden, ID
Contact:

Re: Map Making Assistence Please

Post by koko » Wed Feb 23, 2011 10:39 am

ctf_sealab???

Image
CaptainTripps wrote:I curse and complain all the time. The fuck you gonna do about it?
Image
User avatar
AMMO
Posts: 3217
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2007 11:35 pm
Location: The Belafonte

Re: Map Making Assistence Please

Post by AMMO » Wed Feb 23, 2011 10:44 am

Wolsk wrote: Check to make sure there are absolutely no holes.
I know you said there aren't, but doing a hole test and looking in every corner are different.
That's not how you check for leaks lol.

Stickbeast, not too sure about your water problem, but you might want to check the steps from the Valve Developer Wiki.

http://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Adding_Water
User avatar
Wolsk
Im hungry, i need a fur burger
<font color=blue>Im hungry, i need a fur burger</font>
Posts: 9910
Joined: Wed Aug 20, 2008 4:22 pm
Location: under your bed

Re: Map Making Assistence Please

Post by Wolsk » Wed Feb 23, 2011 10:52 am

AMMO wrote:
Wolsk wrote:Check to make sure there are absolutely no holes.
I know you said there aren't, but doing a hole test and looking in every corner are different.
That's not how you check for leaks lol.
Then what do you do?...
User avatar
AMMO
Posts: 3217
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2007 11:35 pm
Location: The Belafonte

Re: Map Making Assistence Please

Post by AMMO » Wed Feb 23, 2011 11:01 am

1) Check the compile log.
2) If there is a leak, load the map pointfile.

Repeat to find any other leaks that may exist.

This will show you exactly where your leak(s) is/are.
User avatar
stickbeast
Posts: 2316
Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2009 9:31 pm

Re: Map Making Assistence Please

Post by stickbeast » Wed Feb 23, 2011 12:47 pm

How I know there are no leaks: I made a brush and hollowed it out, made 5 sides skybox and 1 side ground.

I'm tempted to just start over and keep things more organized (working in powers of 2 etc.)

In earlier compiles of this map, thew water didn't allow you to see through walls. The only thing that has changed from then, is adding more and more stuff inside the bases, adding light_environment, and instead of using nodraw on the corners where you are supposed to according to the "Adding Water" page on the Valve Develepor's Wiki, many of my water brushes had the water texture on all sides, particularly the ones that are problematic. I added cubemaps and a water_lod_control but that didn't solve any of the problems. I even made sure the nodraw texture on the sides of my water brushes weren't overlapping my buildings, and in one case I moved it a good inch or two away just to see if that would fix anything. It didn't.
Django wrote:Why would you want to eat a deer, that animal is dirty.
Image
User avatar
Avvatar
Veni. Legi. Docuit, inportuna.
Posts: 10183
Joined: Fri Feb 21, 2003 3:58 am
Location: San Jose

Re: Map Making Assistence Please

Post by Avvatar » Wed Feb 23, 2011 2:22 pm

stickbeast wrote:How I know there are no leaks: I made a brush and hollowed it out, made 5 sides skybox and 1 side ground.
Stickbeast, you just described a HITLARCUBE. Please delete it immediately and do the job right.
stickbeast wrote:and instead of using nodraw on the corners where you are supposed to according to the "Adding Water" page on the Valve Develepor's Wiki, many of my water brushes had the water texture on all sides, particularly the ones that are problematic.
Please clarify. Are your water brushes now water on all sides, now nodraw on 5 sides, or now something entirely different.
Image
User avatar
stickbeast
Posts: 2316
Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2009 9:31 pm

Re: Map Making Assistence Please

Post by stickbeast » Wed Feb 23, 2011 2:53 pm

Avvatar wrote:you just described a HITLARCUBE. Please delete it immediately and do the job right
How do I "do the job right" ? Make 6 brushes one by one? Whats the difference between making 6 brushes and making one hollowed out cube?
Avvatar wrote: and instead of using nodraw on the corners where you are supposed to according to the "Adding Water" page on the Valve Develepor's Wiki, many of my water brushes had the water texture on all sides, particularly the ones that are problematic.Please clarify. Are your water brushes now water on all sides, now nodraw on 5 sides, or now something entirely different.
Sorry. top surface is currently the water texture, the other sides are no draw.

When I started, i had half of the map flooded with water (added by using the top surface water texture, and 5 sides of nodraw), then used the Clipping Tool to take out the water from the bases, and from the tunnel. By doing this, I accidently made some water have 6 sides of all Water texture.

I'm guessing that I need to add the water texture from all angles that you would see the water from (like the underwater tunnel.) Is this when I would use the "_beneath" textures? Or stick with whatever I'm using on top? I've looked through 3kliksphillips videos and he never really covers underwater stuff.
Django wrote:Why would you want to eat a deer, that animal is dirty.
Image
User avatar
Avvatar
Veni. Legi. Docuit, inportuna.
Posts: 10183
Joined: Fri Feb 21, 2003 3:58 am
Location: San Jose

Re: Map Making Assistence Please

Post by Avvatar » Wed Feb 23, 2011 3:49 pm

stickbeast wrote:
Avvatar wrote:you just described a HITLARCUBE. Please delete it immediately and do the job right
How do I "do the job right" ? Make 6 brushes one by one? Whats the difference between making 6 brushes and making one hollowed out cube?
You don't put your map inside a box. It causes all of what should be outside your map be inside your map. The engine has to draw more surfaces that you shouldn't ever actually be able to see. And if a player finds your leak, they can get outside the map and into the giant cube that shouldn't be there anyway. You do it right by simply closing all the leaks.

As for the water, just make sure that the nodraw brushes aren't touching anything. I don't know too much about water, but I know not to let a nodraw face touch anything you intend to be drawn.
Image
User avatar
AMMO
Posts: 3217
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2007 11:35 pm
Location: The Belafonte

Re: Map Making Assistence Please

Post by AMMO » Wed Feb 23, 2011 4:33 pm

It doesn't sound like he made a hitlarcube actually because he didn't create the box AROUND the map but inside the cube.
User avatar
Avvatar
Veni. Legi. Docuit, inportuna.
Posts: 10183
Joined: Fri Feb 21, 2003 3:58 am
Location: San Jose

Re: Map Making Assistence Please

Post by Avvatar » Wed Feb 23, 2011 4:50 pm

AMMO wrote:It doesn't sound like he made a hitlarcube actually because he didn't create the box AROUND the map but inside the cube.
Oh, that's what that first screenshot is. For the life of me I couldn't figure it out.

My bad.
Image
User avatar
Yatta!
Oh deer
Posts: 1453
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 5:18 am

Re: Map Making Assistence Please

Post by Yatta! » Wed Feb 23, 2011 7:18 pm

Stickbeast: Regarding the glass-water issue, I have a fix. Kinda. There was a CP underwater base map- do you remember the name of it? Iirc, what they did was use a special refractive glass texture (easy to make) looking outside into the skybox. The skybox had a thick fog setting.

However, this won't work perfectly for your map due to the application of the skybox. So I was thinking, perhaps what YOU can do is set up a blue func_brush outside of the glass area (render mode: texture; render amount: low), then set up a slightly further our blue func_brush with a higher render amount and so on until you have render amount 255 (max). A similar method is used in a good abyss-esque visual effect. Basically, since the source: tf2 engine doesn't let you apply cheap fog to specific areas (and particle effects are usually out of the question), you can fake any sort of fog-like effect by stacking a bunch of func_brushes behind eachother, each more visible (as in higher render amount) than the last. The end result will be a fade-to-brush-color. In your case, it would fake the skybox fog without sacrificing the skybox for other use as well as provide you a good fake underwater effect if you're using a refractive glass.

The only caveat with this method is when a player is swimming in the water and swims up to that fade-to-brush-color brush cluster around the glass. You'd need a brush fade cluster on the exterior as well as interior. Furthermore, idk how efficient rendering such a system underwater would be. It could be cheap, it could be expensive. Just don't use refractive glass on the exterior of your glass tube. I don't wanna know how expensive two refractive surfaces mixed with this func_brush cluster could potentially be. Yuck.

Or you could just make/use an animated water refractive map to fake being underwater without having to use refractive glass. Idk, whichever is easier/less impossible.

If you're curious, when I get home, I can give you a rundown on how exactly water textures works in source, as it sounds like that knowledge will be supa useful for this project, or perhaps I can update this post with more info.
prolix
Posts: 2278
Joined: Fri Feb 07, 2003 6:46 pm

Re: Map Making Assistence Please

Post by prolix » Thu Feb 24, 2011 7:58 pm

Yatta! wrote:Stickbeast: Regarding the glass-water issue, I have a fix. Kinda. There was a CP underwater base map- do you remember the name of it? Iirc, what they did was use a special refractive glass texture (easy to make) looking outside into the skybox. The skybox had a thick fog setting.


cp_aqua i think would be that
User avatar
stickbeast
Posts: 2316
Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2009 9:31 pm

Re: Map Making Assistence Please

Post by stickbeast » Thu Feb 24, 2011 8:35 pm

Thanks for the help guys, I decided to just start over trying to keep my numbers tidy and stuff.

Before I was making two bases at the same time, and thought it was needlessly time consuming, when I could just copy & paste one base and rotate it 180 degrees. Is there anything wrong with this?
Django wrote:Why would you want to eat a deer, that animal is dirty.
Image
Post Reply