Mapping Goodness and Fried Worms

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shawnolson
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Mapping Goodness and Fried Worms

Post by shawnolson » Wed Dec 11, 2013 7:42 pm

It's been a while since I posted here... but then I remembered one of my goals (getting Nipper hooked on Wall Worm) has still gone unfulfilled. So I'm back to share some updates on various tools that might tickle the fancy of a mapper or two.

In the last year, I've updated the Wall Worm tools to include a complete VMF Importer AND VMF Exporter. This means that you can bring your VMF entirely from Source into 3ds Max... and you can export levels, models and textures from Max into Source. There is also a MAP importer, meaning you can bring in old Goldsrc levels into Max to re-export into Source.

There is a lot more. The majority of my focus in the last year has been on the level design side. One biggie is the addition of Entity tools in Max. Also a ton of enhancements and additions to displacements.

There are also VBSP creation tools in the Wall Worm tools. The VBSP Importer was commissioned by Robert Briscoe of Dear Esther. I expanded those tools to include VBSP creation tools and a plugin called Detailer (which is my first commercial plugin).

Anyway, if you use 3ds Max and are addicted to Source Mapping, you'll love these. If not... well... now is a good time to get started! :)

PS... Nipper... I've got a new world geometry plugin under works. I want you to test it! Hit me up on Steam.
Shawn Olson
That dude who made the Wall Worm Model Tools
Also the person who allegedly took a bath.
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Re: Mapping Goodness and Fried Worms

Post by KoD » Thu Dec 12, 2013 9:03 am

I remember this, good to see you're still working on it to provide mappers with useful tools and resources. The .map importer sounds pretty sweet, would be nice for a nostalgic time but unfortunately hardly anyone in the counter-strike community plays custom maps like those. Our CS:S server hardly sees 1-3 public players per year even when we had people playing almost each weekend :(

I would like to give this a try but since I hardly use 3ds max I can't really test out most of these features. Really awesome tool though for those still making their own models, may they be for maps or hats - some are quite spectacular. Thank you for helping make their work easier.
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Re: Mapping Goodness and Fried Worms

Post by shawnolson » Thu Dec 12, 2013 9:50 am

Thanks for the kind remarks.

Regarding custom maps... you are only half-right about custom content in the community. At least in CS:GO, many custom maps have been moved into the core game in the last year (some of which are by people using Wall Worm, BTW). While it's always true that the majority prefer to paste their souls onto de_dust... there are many people playing these newer maps... and because they are in CS:GO now they aren't labeled "custom" anymore :)

Perhaps its time to get Nipper and some others here to try and get something into the game itself... !
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Re: Mapping Goodness and Fried Worms

Post by shawnolson » Tue Jan 14, 2014 10:10 am



New level design tool for Max called CorVex.

[EDIT] Pasted wrong link initially. And you can get CorVex here.
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Re: Mapping Goodness and Fried Worms

Post by shawnolson » Sun Sep 21, 2014 12:48 pm

The plugin CorVex has been updated this week. There are many new features.

Image

Among the new features are expanded UV parameters, new step/slope modes and more. It will be easiest to demonstrate some of the features:





Visit the link above for more videos and info.

And Nipper... time for you to delve into some 3ds Max mapping!
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Re: Mapping Goodness and Fried Worms

Post by Hoodedsniper » Tue Sep 23, 2014 2:36 pm

Can you explain the benefits of mapping in 3ds Max over Hammer mapping? Assuming the map is for a source game.
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Re: Mapping Goodness and Fried Worms

Post by shawnolson » Tue Sep 23, 2014 3:49 pm

Hoodedsniper wrote:Can you explain the benefits of mapping in 3ds Max over Hammer mapping? Assuming the map is for a source game.
That's an excellent question. I'm glad you asked... because the standard response is "That's a dumb idea." I've grown accustomed to the Source community regurgitating that response for years. So your response is welcome to me.

The first thing to clarify is that the benefit of Max over Hammer is dependent on a few factors: 1) Who you are; 2) What your 3D Skill level is; 3) What your goals with 3D are; 4) What your 3D potential is; 5) What your willingness to learn is. If you are already in a comfort zone with Hammer, do not feel limited by its procedures and capabilities, or do not have time/energy to learn some new work flows, then you might as well stick with Hammer. However, if you want to take your design capabilities to the next level, then you are forced to create custom assets and must learn a modeling/texturing application anyway. Wall Worm sits inside arguably the most widely used professional 3D application.

Here is a user guide I've been working on to help Hammer users transition: Hammered to the Max: A Hammer User's Guide to 3ds Max.

That spells it out robustly. But here are a few points:
  • 3ds Max has non-destructive, parametric design tools. Hammer does not. The video above showing walls and steps demonstrates this where a single spinner controls the width or height of dozens of brushes at once.
  • You can build models side-by-side with your brush geometry (in one application)
  • You can create Materials and Textures on-the-fly inside your design environment.
  • The Run Map equivalent in WW's VMF exporter has options to automatically PAK your assets into the BSP.
  • 3D Sky geometry and models do not have to be designed at miniature scale and moved off after a level is done.
  • Making your own custom 2D Sky Texture is as simple as designing and environment to render and clicking a button.
  • And there are a multitude of helper functions in Wall Worm that help you do things that simply take forever in Hammer. For example, see the func_tracktrain video below.
As the list predicted, here is just one of the many types of things you can do quickly:



Of course, utilizing 3ds Max and Wall Worm for Source takes more education and experience than using Hammer. So there is definitely a learning curve. But it's not monumental. I used Worldcraft and then Hammer for quite a while. During those years I always wanted to be able to use 3ds Max instead. Now, if you have a similar desire, it is possible.
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Re: Mapping Goodness and Fried Worms

Post by NIPPER » Tue Sep 23, 2014 5:18 pm

I could definitely see this being helpful for outdoors maps. I don't have 3ds max though and I'm guessing not a lot of people do.
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Re: Mapping Goodness and Fried Worms

Post by shawnolson » Tue Sep 23, 2014 7:56 pm

NIPPER wrote:I could definitely see this being helpful for outdoors maps. I don't have 3ds max though and I'm guessing not a lot of people do.
Well.. here is your solution: Autodesk Educational License. It's free and legal. Autodesk gives you the opportunity to use their software for learning for three years.

Glad I finally got a Nipper response! I've been trying to bait you for years now :)
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Re: Mapping Goodness and Fried Worms

Post by Hoodedsniper » Wed Sep 24, 2014 12:23 pm

You should seriously get this on other active mapping forums, I know facepunch is really big into hammer and mapping subreddits on reddit.

Also try and get into direct contact with the more prevalent CS:GO mappers that tend to get there maps officially in CS:GO for the Operation things, I think those type of people would really dig this.

My biggest concern for all this is what you have done is make a more professional environment from hammer yet trying to sway everyone with it. So if I think you start spreading this to stuff like mod teams, or small map teams like the CS:GO guys, and the more well versed you will get people on it. I think you need to realize your audience, and also realize what Valves is for hammer, especially now with there newly released Dota 2 tools.

I mean, most people that use hammer are casual with it and I dont see the point in using your tools when being more of a casual hobbyist mapper because hammer does everything it needs and its already all right there. Im speaking specifically for hammer here, cant comment on it compared to other builders.

What I do see are tools that are a godsend for the more serious mappers and teams, whether still as a hobby or more professional. You made a workspace that a mapper/modeler/texturer/ and whatever else 3DS max can do all in 1 place, and most people arent all those things. But what I do know is having a modeler/texturer/mapper split across multiple programs is more time consuming, unorganized, and more work and I think those people are the ones who would pick up your tools.

Also I am quite curious on your thoughts on the Dota 2 Alpha tools, its a clear indication on where Valve is going in terms of hammer and tools and it actually is a lot more of a workspace than just a level editor now with the Dota 2 tools.
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Re: Mapping Goodness and Fried Worms

Post by shawnolson » Wed Sep 24, 2014 1:27 pm

Hoodedsniper wrote:You should seriously get this on other active mapping forums, I know facepunch is really big into hammer and mapping subreddits on reddit.
I post on Facepunch and many other 3d and game editing sites regularly. I'm actually winding down with pushing in general on many sites due to time constraints. I pop in here from time to time mainly because I've had a personal goal to see Nipper use the tools :)
Hoodedsniper wrote:Also try and get into direct contact with the more prevalent CS:GO mappers that tend to get there maps officially in CS:GO for the Operation things, I think those type of people would really dig this.
The Wall Worm tools are widely used by many mods, teams and artists. Most users of the toolset generally do so for the model and texture exporting tools. Among the prominent users for CS:GO is Rick "RickD" Underhill. There are thousands of installs globally. Again, most are making models in Max and then exporting for Hammer. Getting people to understand the benefits of Max-only over Max + Hammer is hard because of the long history of that not being possible and the longer history of people thinking you shouldn't. Trying to convince the world of the benefits is really an uphill battle and I've generally lost steam for spending much time fighting those beliefs--the incentive is too low. But I do enjoy seeing others who can benefit get the satisfaction of it. (I'm pretty sure Nipper here would get some creative enjoyment in these tools.)
Hoodedsniper wrote:I think you need to realize your audience, and also realize what Valves is for hammer, especially now with there newly released Dota 2 tools.

I mean, most people that use hammer are casual with it and I dont see the point in using your tools when being more of a casual hobbyist mapper because hammer does everything it needs and its already all right there. Im speaking specifically for hammer here, cant comment on it compared to other builders.

...

Also I am quite curious on your thoughts on the Dota 2 Alpha tools, its a clear indication on where Valve is going in terms of hammer and tools and it actually is a lot more of a workspace than just a level editor now with the Dota 2 tools.
I am very aware of the audience. Years of the average comment of "that's dumb" have made this very clear to me :) (The majority of WW users love the model tools but look at the level design tools with consternation...) In the end, I make these tools for myself. And I share them with the community (aside from a few commercial addons). There have been periods where I tried to spread the word more about the level tools... now it is less often. Again, the steam is running out on that side of me.

I do think the new Hammer is really nice, and much closer to the type of environment I'd enjoy. If you are a level designer who likes the new Hammer, then you're probably the same kind of person who would love using 3ds Max for level design (if you know how to use it). I certainly like the direction Valve is finally going. That being said, knowing as much about Max as I do and seeing how the new Hammer works, I know that the design tools in Max are far superior. So I personally won't be moving to the new Hammer... and I intend to continue building tools for Source2 as soon as there is a game that makes me want to build something for it. The major benefit of Max over Hammer is that it is easily modified to create any kind of tool and utility to solve any task you want. Whereas updates to Hammer (and it's workflow) require you to wait for Valve to make them... in Max you can sit down and make your own tools all day long.

You are correct that the average Source mapper is a casual hobbyist. Wall Worm and Max are not necessarily for the casual Source mapping hobbyist. In the end, each person can and does choose to use what they know is available and what they have. WW is just another option for those who happen to want to use 3ds Max. Now that Hammer is finally evolving, it actually validates a lot of what WW has been getting at for a long time. One way to look at it is that using WW/3ds Max gives you an opportunity to work in more creative ways in mods like CS:GO that do not have the newer tools from Valve (at least yet).

But all of this is irrelevant to my cause here. My personal goal here is to get Mr. Nipper to tip his toe into these tools :) I sense a mad chaos in his creativity that might enjoy getting unleashed a little.
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Re: Mapping Goodness and Fried Worms

Post by Hoodedsniper » Wed Sep 24, 2014 4:29 pm

Haha all you need for nipper to use max over hammer is to make func_vehicle work somehow in 3DS max and CS:GO

If you can do real-time lightning previews in Max 3D that would look like what it looks like in game id be sold honestly. If I could make source maps with a working real-time light preview id switch to whatever it is that lets me. So can you actually? I really dont know much about it. That is the one feature ive been wanting forever because light work in Hammer is so fucking tedious without a real-time preview. The one they have in it hasnt ever worked either.
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Re: Mapping Goodness and Fried Worms

Post by shawnolson » Wed Sep 24, 2014 4:45 pm

No, the lighting in Max is not as it will be in-game. It's much better than in the traditional Hammer, however, as it does include realtime lighting and shadows. They just aren't guaranteed to be as Source compiles them exactly. So you get a better approximation, but an exact representation is not there yet. At the least, you see how the lights will hit all the geometry and cast shadows--but the realtime doesn't include light bouncing. The realtime Ambient Occlusion in later versions of Max does help with the illusion of some light bouncing. I generally still have to compile a time or two to get the right global light scale set... and after that the lighting adjustments in Max are at least good approximations.

One current limitation is that my DirectX equivalent of the WorldVertexTransition shader does not cast shadows yet. It will eventually.
Shawn Olson
That dude who made the Wall Worm Model Tools
Also the person who allegedly took a bath.
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