Class limiter

Anything dealing with the game Team Fortress 2 or the servers we host for it.

Should we keep the class limiter?

Yes
18
35%
No
33
65%
 
Total votes: 51
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bl4nk
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Re: Class limiter

Post by bl4nk » Sun Oct 12, 2008 11:31 pm

I turned it off earlier today.
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Re: Class limiter

Post by Avvatar » Sun Oct 12, 2008 11:49 pm

Once again, bl4nk has repaired the server.
<3 bl4nk
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joe
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Re: Class limiter

Post by joe » Sun Oct 12, 2008 11:51 pm

i'll be turning it back on next time i play
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Re: Class limiter

Post by Scarecrow4560 » Mon Oct 13, 2008 12:44 am

Look, if people keep wanting it off, and it people turn it off while they're on, its obvious not many people want it, at least not that way it is, so why keep it on? It as already proven to drive people from the server, what will happen when more leave? Having people leave because of a plug-in that already most people don't want, may be the downfall of the server. It has already shown that limiting classes won't force team play, and you can't force people to play the way you want, it won't work.
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STUMPER -AKA- WILD_THANG
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Re: Class limiter

Post by STUMPER -AKA- WILD_THANG » Mon Oct 13, 2008 1:03 am

joe wrote:if you're going to leave over 1 server setting, that's your call.

as far as the server setting, it's not really up for debate. the j2 servers have ALWAYS been about teamgoals. if there was a teamgoals plugin for TF2 we would be using it. the sniper limit is not the best way to encourage teamgoals but it's better than nothing, which is our other option.

You pm'd me about this also...i replied to your pm.

Heres a copy of the pm response....it fit's here too.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Joe if you dumb it down to just being about 1 server setting then please go reread my post and absorb it.

It's not about 1 server setting.

Much deeper than that.
Youve always touted (and i admired you for it) most fun for most people.

The total way this was handled and is continuing to be handled BLOWS.

It's about ignoring darn near everyone and everything.

Hey..their your servers man..you can do as you want with them. I understand that whole heartedly.

I know you love the challenge, i know you love the conquest and winning feeling of team driven fps and tactical games.
That isnt what server #4 is or has been from day 1.

Why take the 1 server out of 8 that is the most popular because of how it is and put a fork in it?

You could of easily gotten advice from all your peers/admins/friends on the best course of action instead of going lone wolf on this.

#3 as suggested could be turned into the perfect server that "you" want. No harm in that. Then for those that are looking for that type of experience have a CHOICE.

First line of joe.to home page--------
"joe.to is an on-line gaming community dedicated to providing a fun place to play your favourite games"

Maybe your mindset has always been everything on joe.to is about teamgoal driven games but it doesn't say that anywhere and i know the majority of the user base doesnt feel that way always either.

I read a recent post you made in the admin forums concerning the porn sprays....

You said "status quo....if it aint broke dont fix it."

I guess the servers were broke in your eyes.
Either way, iv'e had my run.

Thanks for the forums and for sharing in the fun over the years.

THANG
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Re: Class limiter

Post by floodo1 » Mon Oct 13, 2008 1:18 am

joe wrote:if you're going to leave over 1 server setting, that's your call.

as far as the server setting, it's not really up for debate. the j2 servers have ALWAYS been about teamgoals. if there was a teamgoals plugin for TF2 we would be using it. the sniper limit is not the best way to encourage teamgoals but it's better than nothing, which is our other option.
wow. you are retarded joe. in game you argue that 1) no one likes 6 snipers 2) snipers dont contribute to the game because a) they dont cap b) they dont help the other objective which is to prevent the other team from capping. and 3) you argued that there are situations where you would want more than 3 of a single class, by using the example that if you had 8 medics your team would have so many ubers you'd be able to cap and thus achieve objective a) cap the point.

on point 1). no one wants 6 snipers. the two numbers everyone throws about is 2 or 3 snipers should be allowed. but 1 sniper is ludicrous. as i'll show with my arugments below.

on point 2) certainly most people will NOT argue that snipers cap points. i'll concede this. but on point b) the goal of defending against caps, which you admitted is one of the two goals (cap and defend) how can you possibly aruge that snipers dont do this? in order for the enemy to cap your point they have to physically GET to the point. if you get shot by a sniper before you get there then you cant cap. therefore the sniper just defeneded the point.
on point 3) imagine a team with 8 snipers. just like the 8 medics team. now the snipers stand a good chance of mopping up most of the other team, and potentially defending the point and winning. in this case you MUST admit that the snipers defended the point, causing them to win.
so you MUST accept that snipers DO play DEFENSE.

and if this is the case then snipers have a place in the game, as long range, pre-emptive defenders, capable of taking out high health targets in single hits.

its just STUPID to try and claim that snipers dont help out at least sometimes.

.
.
.

so what am i saying here?

up the limit to 3 on most maps. on super sniper friendly maps like sf_fieldtrip and bedrooms, and any other huge map, set the limit at 2.
why 2? because its really not fair that part-time snipers arent allowed to play because the full-time snipers are already in the spot.


.
.
.

and where do you get off ignoring the community? its so painfully obvious, by the DAILY complaining of MOST of the server that the sniper limit is still in effect.

this is a solution looking for a problem, at least when it comes to most maps.
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Re: Class limiter

Post by Cervantes » Mon Oct 13, 2008 2:03 am

arguing that snipers help the team is stupid because it's obviously not true. on rooftop i've seen a sniper stand by a control point while the enemy was capturing it, sniping. they pick off enemies, but they really don't contribute to goals. snipers only work on defense and defense alone, and they do that terribly. a spy or a scout can easily get past them, although the scout might be taken out if the sniper's good enough. on CTF and CP maps where you're both capping they're completely useless. engineers can prevent the enemy team at the key points, but snipers have to prevent them from getting there, and in a CP map you want to spend the most energy pushing instead of staying where you are.

i'll admit i couldn't give a damn about supporting goals: idiocy won't be cured by getting rid of snipers, and though it helps it is far from instantly curing deathmatches. what i enjoy is not playing against snipers, because they're not fun to play against. there's no way to go against them other than "go a different route" or "weave erratically"; the first one sometimes isn't an option, and the second one doesn't always work. point is, i hate playing against snipers.

i do play sniper from time to time, but when i do i tend to stick to machete and SMG because that's how i roll. it's not a big loss if i can't play sniper when i want to.

tl;dr i'm defending the change because fuck snipers
:)
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Re: Class limiter

Post by Mad_Dugan » Mon Oct 13, 2008 2:14 am

Hyperbole

3rd party maps have 3rd party problems.

Maybe it really comes down to tracking down great^great maps that are not so sniper friendly. The Valve maps (and the 3rd party ones they promoted) take into consideration snipers not dominating or force snipers to contend with each other (2fort).

(I want to do a remake of rooftime alpha that is less sniper friendly toward spawn camping.)
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Re: Class limiter

Post by KoD » Mon Oct 13, 2008 2:44 am

Mad_Dugan wrote:(I want to do a remake of rooftime alpha that is less sniper friendly toward spawn camping.)
I started that but I didn't finish (Like my other 76 maps)
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Re: Class limiter

Post by Sidecutter » Mon Oct 13, 2008 8:20 am

I'm against the limiter simply because it's going against what most of the people playing on the servers want, based on the constant complaining I hear lately about it.

We admins are supposed to enforce the rules in such a way that the majority of the players on the server have the most fun possible. If five people are having a great time but ruining it for twenty others, we're supposed to deal with those five people for the benefit of the majority.

Our base rule as admins is supposed to be that majority rules when it comes to whether something is bad or not (with certain exceptions). Why should this issue be any different? We have a clear majority that does not enjoy the limiter as it is - so is it going to be the enjoyment of the many, or...?
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Re: Class limiter

Post by Rat-morningstar » Mon Oct 13, 2008 9:36 am

ugh,some people don't want a limit, some want a 1 sniper limit.
why not stop the childishness and act like normal people?
why no 3 sniper cap? that way everyone is happy
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Re: Class limiter

Post by Ninge » Mon Oct 13, 2008 10:57 am

Coming from a person who is mainly a sniper, in ever dame game out there, I don't find it fair. Like I said and others as well, MAKE THE LIMIT HIGHER IF THERE IS GOING TO BE ONE. That's the main reason why I don't play as much. To be honest, you don't play that much as it is Joe, so this kind of only benefits you in a way. Every game I've played on the servers, every1 pushed through the goal otherwise why would the map last so long? Its not b/c of one class or nobody wants to play, they are playing to have fun. I haven't seen much of this whole "we need to capture the point" or something like that, people know what to do, who cares if it takes long to accomplish it. Servers are meant to be fun.

Don't want to say much more b/c I have a huge headache right.
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joe
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Re: Class limiter

Post by joe » Mon Oct 13, 2008 11:14 am

when i put the TG plugin on the counterstrike servers, people complained and said it was ruining the game. within a few weeks it was clear that it improved the game. a few people didn't like it and left but the majority of people felt that it was much better than a normal counterstrike server.

i keep seeing the same comments in here and people are not reading or understanding what i'm saying, so let me try to reiterate:

a) teamgoals is more fun than non-TG. there's obvious reasons for this that i will explain in another post if you don't understand.

b) the sniper limit is being used because we don't have an alternative. if there is a better way to promote teamwork, we can turn off the sniper limit

c) it's working quite well so far. out of about 30 rounds on bedrooms, i never saw a team come close to capping all 5 points. after the sniper limit, i played the map twice and all 4 rounds were won by capping all 5 points.

d) if you want to improve the situation, make specific suggestions as i stated before: map name, color (team), suggested limit. so far i haven't seen a single post like this. i will be happy to turn off the sniper limit for defensive teams.

i'm sorry you guys don't trust my judgement after years of showing i know what i'm doing, but i am always going to do my best to make the servers more fun for everyone and i feel that this is the best way to go about it. i am disappointed that more people aren't even giving me the benefit of the doubt to try this for a few weeks, but if the only reason you want to play tf2 is to be a sniper, play on our TF3 server. problem solved. we can even set up a server with sniper-only maps if that makes you happy.
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Re: Class limiter

Post by jermm » Mon Oct 13, 2008 12:55 pm

Idea: make headshots worth 1 pt. This doesn't change anything gameplay-wise, but would make people who are playing for points go other classes. The sniper is needed on some maps, he's a great long-range sg killer, and when he takes out that übercharge 100% medic from across the map...
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MrBlip
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Re: Class limiter

Post by MrBlip » Mon Oct 13, 2008 1:51 pm

I'll see if I can poke around with SourceMod and create a plugin that gives bonuses for completing objectives and optional punishments for not completing objectives.
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