Class limiter

[KoD]

You're officially crazy. Snipers on that map piss everyone off AND they don't help because they go for enemies not the cars engine, tires, or the front of the inside of the enemies car.

IF you say that shooting the enemies helps the goals then you're a total hypocrite because they do the same thing on EVERY other map.

[joe]

on every other map, you have to cap a point or a flag. on wacky racing, really the map is about the driver. everyone else is just running around killing each other. so a sniper doesn't really hurt their team because everyone except the driver is basically useless.

[floodo1]

on every other map, you have to cap a point or a flag. on wacky racing, really the map is about the driver. everyone else is just running around killing each other. so a sniper doesn't really hurt their team because everyone except the driver is basically useless.

except the map isnt only about the driver. the driver makes the car go, but everyone else can make the car stop. and snipers cant stop the driver, they can only stop other people.
so since the idea is promoting the team goals, which are 1) make your car go, and 2) stop the other team's car, then by your std logic snipers should be banned.

can't have it both ways joe
well you can, but only cuz ur in charge

[Avvatar]

Terrible. Fucking terrible.

[Scarecrow4560]

in wacky races, the goal is basically just to keep your driver alive while hitting the enemy tires and engine. snipers don't detract from those goals so if anything wacky races should have unlimited snipers.

your turning into a freakin hypocrite! That is how it is on all maps. Simply replace the driver with someone carrying the intel or standing on the point. Its the exact same thing!

[Sidecutter]

At the absolute, VERY least, the limits need to be different depending on the map. There is absolutely nothing worse than having your team dominated by a sniper on the enemy team while your team has a rotten sniper who can't neutralize the other properly.

On maps where one sniper is appropriate, there should be a way to get a better sniper in place if necessary. As it stands, the only way we could do that is to kick a bad sniper, or forcibly switch them to spectate or the other team. Either of these solutions would be an unacceptable abuse of admin powers. If any map at all is going to have a one sniper limit, we need a way for the team to initiate a vote on that sniper if they suck, so they can boot him out in favor of someone worth having as a sniper.

As far as people sitting back and sniping instead of going for the goals, I rarely see that happen, and I do play a good bit on the server. That's not to say it doesn't happen, but it's not a constant issue at all. People know what to do and generally try to pick their strongest class and get it done.

[perryhussy]

NO MORE LIMITS

[joe]

you guys are dumb. i've tried explaining it but you're not getting it. it's pretty straightforward.

on a normal map, let's say it looks like this

R ----------------- B

on the left is 100% red team because they spawn there.
on the right is 100% blue. in the middle is 50/50.

as a red player moves to the right, he is accompanied by fewer and fewer R's and more and more B's.

red snipers normally stay to the left, at least compared to other classes. the 1% of snipers that run forward with a machete don't affect this enough to matter. so every sniper on your team increases the Red at Red base and decreases the Red at Blue base.

in order to win, you need a physical presence at the enemy base - either to kill defenders, or grab the flag, or capture the point.

and like in almost every game, greater numbers give an advantage.

therefore every sniper directly affects the rest of his team by DECREASING the number of teammates at the enemy base. his contribution of KILLING enemies is much less than other players who actively try to achieve the goal because:
a) more often than not he's killing people who are not engaged in combat, because when fighting most players move erratically. given 2 targets, one moving erratically and one not, the sniper is more often going to kill the one not moving erratically. what this means is that the normal superiority in numbers that would take place in a 2vs1 fight doesn't apply when one of the 2 is a sniper shooting from range.
b) his weapon by design requires him to stand still or at most move between kills, and ideally in a large area where he has the advantage of greater range than any other weapon. therefore he can't move to a location that needs his help such as a dropped flag in a ramproom, or underwater, or in the enemy base, etc.
c) his weapon is very long range, and he is generally shooting towards the enemy base. that means he is killing enemies sooner after they spawn than other defenders, who don't kill until the enemy reaches their base. that means his contribution, which is limited to decreased enemy effective lifespan, is less than the contribution of other defending classes.

i could go on with several more reasons but i dont feel like typing a fucking dissertation on obvious shit that a 10 year old should see for him/herself.

to put it another way:
you're running into the enemy base on 2forts, with the goal of capping (or at least moving) the enemy flag. who is going to increase your chances of doing this:
a) a sniper on your battlements who can't see or shoot into the enemy base
b) any other class running into the enemy base with you
if you answered A, you're officially a moron.

now, the reason for the class limiter of sniper is because IT HAS LESS OF AN EFFECT ON TEAM GOALS FOR THESE REASONS. it's not because sniper is "annoying" or anything else. it's only because every sniper is negatively affecting the chances of his team achieving the goal. sometimes there's room for 1 sniper for tactical reasons but rarely more than 1 is as beneficial as another class.

anyway on wacky races, the whole situation is different. there is no distance issue since people spawn directly on their truck.
there is no capture point.
there is no flag.
there is no enemy base.
there is nothing to defend other than your driver, who is in a tiny room that can't be defended by a sniper anyway.
and since all the above disadvantages i talked about with the sniper above DO NOT APPLY, there is no reason to limit snipers. i would be a hypocrite if i turned ON the sniper limit for wacky races since that would go against the reasoning for the limit in the first place.

now do you boneheads get it? jesus christ.

[scobywhru]

At the absolute, VERY least, the limits need to be different depending on the map. There is absolutely nothing worse than having your team dominated by a sniper on the enemy team while your team has a rotten sniper who can't neutralize the other properly.

On maps where one sniper is appropriate, there should be a way to get a better sniper in place if necessary. As it stands, the only way we could do that is to kick a bad sniper, or forcibly switch them to spectate or the other team. Either of these solutions would be an unacceptable abuse of admin powers. If any map at all is going to have a one sniper limit, we need a way for the team to initiate a vote on that sniper if they suck, so they can boot him out in favor of someone worth having as a sniper.

As far as people sitting back and sniping instead of going for the goals, I rarely see that happen, and I do play a good bit on the server. That's not to say it doesn't happen, but it's not a constant issue at all. People know what to do and generally try to pick their strongest class and get it done.

Amen Brother

On another note, in wacky races snipers can basically stop the enemy car with one full charged shot to the engine, short of attacking the drivers seat, nothing stops a car quicker then a sniper but none actually attack or rarely attack the car itself.

[perryhussy]

christ how is this still a debate

just remove em period

[Mad_Dugan]

[Avvatar]

I love how anyone that disagrees with joe "just doesn't get it" no matter what it is joe's talking about.

[Rat-morningstar]

yeah, lol

anyway, stop acting like kids, make the limit 2 or 3, that way everyone is happy

it's still pretty easy to get past 2 snipers

[bl4nk]

I think what dugan is trying to say is that the class is under the "support" category for a reason.

[Scarecrow4560]

I think what dugan is trying to say is that the class is under the "support" category for a reason.

Wow, that's a great picture to post. Sniper is under the support class because it supports team mates.